Hi Brian
I wouldn=92t mind a copy of that CD also if possible.
Kind Regards
Alan Burrows
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo
Toivio
Sent: 20 June 2007 10:55
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Brian, exellent!
I have been a member "always"
but haven=B4t got the CD
(maybe there was not yet a
CD-invention in those early days!).
Please send it me now!
Thank you, Raimo
=============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
HYPERLINK "mailto:raimo.toivio@rwm.fi"raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
HYPERLINK "http://www.rwm.fi"www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:bdavies@dircon.co.uk"Brian Davies
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Raimo,
When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that
includes
a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus
a
number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type
e.g
composite construction issues.
Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
_____
From: HYPERLINK
"mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com"owner-europa-list-server@m
atr
onics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Raimo
Toivio
Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
---From the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:possibletodo@yahoo.com"Paul Boulet
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with
your
prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna
172
for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually
turn
more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can
fly
back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite
direction
to line back up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing
some
800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I
would call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a
reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn back
to
r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots
MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts
and
failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
speed is
75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black
rubber
and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
HYPERLINK "mailto:raimo.toivio@rwm.fi"raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
HYPERLINK "http://www.rwm.fi/"www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk"William
Harrison
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any
aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might
be a
lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed,
flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps
up
(trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
personal
rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth
deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp
Fixed
pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage
flaps
down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that
would be
required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly
result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height
will
know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the
only
safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be
possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in
shrub
or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would
walk
away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney -
(Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk"William
Harrison
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it
highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who
did
my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a
safe
180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I
practised a
few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200
and
300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130
pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a
large
golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between
the
runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he
had
an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead.
Can
that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical
cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <HYPERLINK
"mailto:fklein@orcasonline.com"fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
"mailto:gdh@isp.com"gdh@isp.com>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
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