Brian, exellent!
I have been a member "always"
but haven=B4t got the CD
(maybe there was not yet a
CD-invention in those early days!).
Please send it me now!
Thank you, Raimo
=============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Davies
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Raimo,
When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that
includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and
accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance to
our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues.
Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo
Toivio
Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
from the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Boulet
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180
with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned
a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back.
You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall
so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30
degrees in opposite direction to line back up with r-way centerline. In
my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's
been awhile). Upon takeoff I would call out "decision height" even if
no one else was listening as a reminder of whether I would control crash
straight ahead... or turn back to r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the
mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75
knots MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against
gusts and failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum
climbing speed is 75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000
feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with
black rubber and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer
in any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it
might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of
airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts,
flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so
a personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back
is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have
the 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at
this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The
steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height
would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable
results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low
height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500
feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90
degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead
even in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa
crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years
ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few
injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John
Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me
that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for
many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more
times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an
airforce c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like
once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West
there is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The
crash site is between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one
would think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or
perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the
friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two
appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will
continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
gdh@isp.com>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken
Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing,
told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash.
Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of
hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord
wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been
installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks,
which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from
the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa
and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are
strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year
ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were
in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times,
I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the
tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire
in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely
to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts
I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly
vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
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