Carl, You may have a trigear which makes some difference to my thoughts on
this question, which are for what they are worth that it makes sense to get
the flaps up as soon as you have reasonable speed (for me 60kts). In my mono
I can climb at probably four times the rate when flaps are up compared with
flaps down, so that the time that I spend in that awkward height band where
you can only land ahead (even if you don't like any of what's ahead) is
drastically reduced. Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed
pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps
down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be
required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly
result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will
know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only
safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be
possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub
or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk
away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney -
(Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it
highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did
my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe
180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a
few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200
and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130
pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a
large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is
between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he
had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead.
Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical
cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it
was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used
to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
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