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Re: Europa-List: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Subject: Re: Europa-List: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS
From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 22:35:07

Dave, For what it is worth when my standard Europa 
supplied & wired rectifier failed,  (over the Channel!), 
the only thing that happened was that the ammeter showed 
discharge directly related to how many bits of kit I left 
switched on. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

  Nigel Graham <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:
><nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
> 
> Dave,
> 
> The unit is a combination of rectifier and regulator. 
> The issues you experience will depend on which component 
>in which part of the circuit fails.
> There are (as far as I can identify - though I'm sure 
>better qualified contributors will correct me if I'm 
>wrong) three modes of failure.
> If you are really lucky, it will fail open-circuit, in 
>which case everything continues to work fine but your 
>battery discharges. The ammeter will show a discharge.
> If you're not so lucky, the regulator fails and sends 
>unregulated DC to your battery. This will eventually boil 
>dry, get very hot and may distort and if no over-voltage 
>protection is fitted, take out your avionics.
> If you're really unlucky and the rectifier section 
>fails, this can squirt unrectified AC into the main bus 
>and kill just about everything except your ignition.
> Which CB breaks depends entirely on how your aircraft 
>was wired up and it is these failure modes that have 
>caused such spirited debate when discussing "the right 
>way" to wire up a panel.
> 
> Nigel
> 
> On 07/04/2014 18:13, david park wrote:
>><dpark748@me.com>
>>
>> Nigel,
>> Would i be correct, in the event of regulator failure, i 
>>am going to see?
>> 1.over/under voltage on volt meter ?
>> 2.main cb break?
>> 3.Ameter indication - discharge?
>>
>> Action - switch off alternator? And any unnecessary 
>>drain on battery.
>> Dave Park
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>> On 7 Apr 2014, at 15:24, Nigel Graham 
>>><nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>><nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
>>>
>>> This is an interesting discussion.
>>> If the aircraft wiring has been well designed and 
>>>installed and if the correctly rated breaker (or fuse) 
>>>has been installed to protect the desired equipment, 
>>> then it is surely reasonable to suppose that the only 
>>>time the breaker would pop, or the fuse blow, is if 
>>>something has failed. No amount of in-flight fiddling is 
>>>going to repair a shorted or broken wire, nor replace a 
>>>failed capacitor, resistor or semiconductor (dare I 
>>>mention Rotax/Ducati Regulator? ..... best not perhaps).
>>> Re-setting a popped breaker without identifying why it 
>>>popped is surely asking for trouble.  Do you wait for the 
>>>first signs of smoke before finally getting the message?
>>>
>>> The only thing a pilot can do is recognise that a 
>>>particular service has gone down and, depending on flight 
>>>criticality, divert or continue.
>>> The only time to investigate the problem will be when 
>>>you are safely down as the cause will almost invariably 
>>>be in an inaccessible place.
>>>
>>> Popped breakers are easy to spot, but fuses are not 
>>>immediately obvious - unless you have chosen the ones 
>>>that Rowland has used which incorporate a "failure" LED.
>>> This does of course require them to be mounted where you 
>>>can see them .......which brings us back to the OP.
>>>
>>> Nigel
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 07/04/2014 13:42, David Joyce wrote:
>>>><davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>>
>>>> Rowland, I don't dispute the electrical safety. It is 
>>>>just the distraction of having to dig around to make a 
>>>>diagnosis and alter any circuitry rather than having it 
>>>>plain obvious, right under your nose. I am strongly of 
>>>>the opinion that anything that increases the 
>>>>workload/distraction factor in an emergency is a 
>>>>thoroughly bad thing and leads to a lot of stall/spin 
>>>>deaths.
>>>> Regards, David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>><rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7 Apr 2014, at 11:03, Brian Davies wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You make a very good point.  The only electrical 
>>>>>>incident I have experienced on my aircraft was a 
>>>>>>generator  overvolt trip just after coasting out over the 
>>>>>>Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of the 
>>>>>>circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama. 
>>>>>>The alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, 
>>>>>>would have been a turn back to the airfield/refiling 
>>>>>>flight plan, revised GAR arrival time etc. etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The safety aspects are even more important..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 
>>>>>>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf 
>>>>>>Of David Joyce
>>>>>> Sent: 07 April 2014 10:16
>>>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Parcel Shelf tray door access 
>>>>>>for fuses, CBS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tony & Rowland,  I have a slightly different 
>>>>>>philosophical approach to this question. A fuse may well 
>>>>>>go as part of some in air failure just possibly 
>>>>>>accompanied by fire or smoke. Time spent working out what 
>>>>>>is happening threatens your safety. As with an engine 
>>>>>>failure serious distraction and stress can lead to speed 
>>>>>>decay and a stall/spin accident. So I prefer my fusing 
>>>>>>system to be out where it is immediately obvious what has 
>>>>>>blown and for this reason I recommend switchable circuit 
>>>>>>breakers, all labelled and readily visible. They have the 
>>>>>>added benefit of readily allowing switching off of 
>>>>>>circuits to deal with emergencies such as regulator 
>>>>>>failure. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>>>> David, Brian - thanks for your comments. I've tried to 
>>>>>do simple Failure Mode & Effects Analysis (FMEA) on both 
>>>>>types of circuit protection remembering that I'll be 
>>>>>trying to fly the aeroplane at the same time. My planned 
>>>>>"mission profile" is such that a failure of any single 
>>>>>electrical item should not compromise flight safety, and 
>>>>>in this I agree with Bob Nucknolls, who has a lot more 
>>>>>experience than me in aircraft electrics. (With 32 years' 
>>>>>professional experience in electronic research I feel I 
>>>>>also know a bit about the "electrics" aspect if not the 
>>>>>"aircraft" aspect.) See the following postings:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvsbkr.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll see there are strong arguments (& feelings!) on 
>>>>>both sides. I can only say in the light of my own 
>>>>>knowledge that I took time over my choice and feel 
>>>>>comfortable with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> in friendship
>>>>>
>>>>> Rowland
>>>>>
>>>>> | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' 
>>>>>...
>>>>> | <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> 
>>>>>http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
>>>>> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland 
>>>>>Carson
>>>>> | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Un/Subscription,
>>>>> Forums!
>>>>> Admin.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
> 
> 
> 



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