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Re: Europa-List: 180 degree turn back

Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 degree turn back
From: Hans J. Danielsen <hansjd@online.no>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:19:29

Jon - all.

Hear -hear, wise words Jon! Your statements are all correct.

One thing though: It's a good practice to build up a little more speed on 
initial climb. After lift-off fly level to about 75 kts, then start your 
climb. Then you have gotten yourself some margins for unexpected happenings. 
OK - your initial climbs want be as spectacular as you may like, but it's a 
small price to pay!!!

Best wishes
Hans
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: Europa-List: 180 degree turn back


> <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi everyone!  It's not often I'm moved to write here - I don't have any 
> technical skills to offer (I just very gratefully make use of other 
> people's knowledge by reading this forum!)
>
> However, regarding this "180 degree turning back" issue I'm absolutely 
> appalled at some of the comments I'm reading here.
>
> I can't say this loudly enough - or type it big enough:  !!!DO NOT TURN 
> BACK!!!  It's a killer.  It always has been and always will be.  There's 
> no big mystery about it - the SAFEST option will always be to land 
> somewhere that's reasonably in front of you.
>
> That's it said really; the rest of this message is just supporting 
> material.  Sure, landing ahead may well result in damage to the plane. 
> But with a little skill and a little luck you should come away unscathed, 
> and maybe the plane will too.  Depends on the local situation.  This is 
> far far better than entering the roulette wheel of turning back, from 
> which the consequences of losing...well we know that don't we?
>
> Let's look at Mr Average (me, you, all of us) in a worse case scenario. 
> Climbing out at 60 kts -  flaps still down (high drag) - nose well up cos 
> it's a nice powerful plane with the latest prop, when the unthinkable 
> happens - at say 500 feet and totally unexpectedly the engine stops.  By 
> the time we've reacted to it the speed will have dropped to 55 kts or 
> probably less.  Then the penny drops and we smartly poke the stick forward 
> and the nose thankfully starts to go down.  Speed will still be lost as 
> the nose is going down until some sort of gliding attitude is attained; 
> only then will the speed loss trend be halted.  If you're a "switched on 
> cookie" and you reacted well to the surprise the speed will now be steady 
> at about 50 kts - but a lot less if you're not so sharp - it might be 40 
> kts or less.  Remember, nose high and power off - rate of speed loss will 
> be tremendous.  What speed should we be aiming for in the subsequent 
> glide?  I don't know - 60 kts seems a reasonable
>  safe approach and landing speed.   More if you need to manoeuvre 
> significantly.  To increase speed in order to obtain a safe gliding speed 
> with the engine off,  (and especially if the flaps are down)  will need a 
> much lower nose attitude - lower than we would EVER use in normal 
> circumstances and will use up a very great deal of height - probably most 
> of your original 500 feet.  Just to get the plane flying safely again. 
> Still going to turn back??  I promise you - you will not make it!!
>
> The first golden rule is to get the bl**dy nose well down, keep it well 
> down and monitor the speed carefully before any sort of manoeuvring is 
> attempted.  In the worse type of critical situation you can still achieve 
> a lot with the plane under good control.  If you lose control by not 
> achieving and maintaining a safe speed everything will be lost.
>
> Incidently, this entire posting is not aimed at the Europa.  It's relevant 
> to every aeroplane there is.  We're fortunate with the Europa in that we 
> are slightly better off than many other planes because it's such a great 
> design with super easy handling and does have some degree of glide 
> performance which might help reach a landing/ controlled crash site that 
> many other planes wouldn't have the legs to reach.  All aeroplanes glide 
> like bricks, the Europa is just a slightly more streamlined brick.  The 
> Europa will stall and spin if badly handled, say in an unwise and badly 
> managed turn back.   It's only an aeroplane after all and all aeroplanes 
> will stall and spin, at least every one I've ever flown.
>
> Just a few comments on postings I've read recently:  First the most 
> serious:
> Someone wrote that during their conversion training they were advised and 
> demonstrated (BY A PFA COACH for goodness sake!!) that a turn back is 
> possible in the Europa from 300 feet.  If people are being taught things 
> like this then it is of no surprise at all to me that these sorts of 
> accidents are still happening - as they have been for nearly 100 years.  I 
> don't know the person who advocates this practise and I don't really want 
> to, but I feel this sort of advice has no place in modern day coaching. 
> The person who wrote this post went on to say he intends to practise the 
> manoeuvre again.  PLEASE DON'T.  It sounds most dangerous.  Firstly, 
> heaven forbid, you might be tempted to attempt it for real, secondly just 
> doing it under controlled simulated conditions sounds fraught with danger. 
> It would be a real shame to become a statistic trying to practise this 
> dangerous exercise.  JUST LAND AHEAD!
>
> A real engine failure after take off will be totally unexpected and will 
> place even the most experienced pilot ever in a totally alien environment 
> with a huge workload.  There will be a fraction of the normal human 
> resources available to control the plane - that's why any action taken 
> must be kept as simple as possible.  Incidently, pilot experience does not 
> necessarily seem to be a factor.  In fact a newly qualified PPL maybe 
> "safer" because hopefully he will rely on his recent training and put the 
> thing down straight ahead.  An "old hand" may be more likely to "think" he 
> is able to turn back where in reality - he can't.
>
> I've read discussion about how individual aircraft of the same design (ie 
> the Europa) have different stall/ spin characteristics from others of the 
> same mark.  Maybe, in fact quite probably, but irrelevant to this "turn 
> back" discussion.  Throughout any manoeuvring near the ground, whether 
> during an unwise turn back or whatever you should be nowhere near 
> stalling!!  That's just basic skill and handling.  If the difference 
> between one variant or another determines the possible successful outcome 
> or otherwise of a situation - DON'T GO THERE!!  Fly the aircraft properly; 
> well balanced and at a safe speed and you will stay safe.  People talk 
> about slipping or skidding turns near the stall.  DO NOT DO THIS NEAR THE 
> GROUND.  If you cannot manoeuvre near the ground without slipping or 
> skidding and/or stalling then don't do it - you've guessed it .. Land 
> ahead!!
>
> I've read about Europa fuel tanks and their survivability.  I don't know 
> any of the technical bits but it seems to me to be an excellent, strong 
> and well - positioned design. I've flown a Piper Pawnee with the fuel tank 
> sandwiched between the engine and the pilot, just ready for the engine to 
> be pushed back into the tank.  The Super Cub has the left wing tank header 
> tank just above your toes.  I've flown the Falke motorglider with the tank 
> just behind your head!  It's got to go somewhere and the Europa seems to 
> be at least as good as any of those!  If an aircraft is to sadly stall/ 
> spin into the ground then I don't think any type of fuel tank will survive 
> this.  Don't worry about the tank - concentrate on flying safely instead 
> and you'll be fine!
>
> The Europa is a fine aircraft but it will bite back if mis-handled- just 
> like any other aircraft will.  We must all strive to be safe and sensible 
> and try not to let a plane bite us.
>
> Best wishes, sorry to ramble on - got carried away!
> Jon Smith
> G-TERN
>
>
> Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
> 



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