When I flew from Colombia to USA I strapped the aux tank to the trigear
cross bar snug up against the rear of the main tank. The aux tank and
transfer pump weighs 16 lbs and holds 10 gals. I made a sort of bath tub
to hold the turtle pac bladder precisely to concentrate the weight as far
forward as possible, even so from the center of the main tank to the center
of the aux tank is 11 inches suggesting the arm of the POH 88 is about
right. Another 10 lbs of tools went under the seats and we had 10lbs of
ipads handheld radio batteries and liferaft.. We had 5lbs each of T shirts
and underwear which went behind the aux tank in the baggage bay.
Lbs arm moment
Front 177.00 15.00 2,655.00
Right 385.00 70.80 27,258.00
Left 385.00 70.80 27,258.00
APS 947.00 60.37 57,171.00
tools Maps GPS headset etc 20.00 56.00 1,120.00
Pilot 200.00 56.00 11,200.00
Pax 200.00 56.00 11,200.00
Baggage 10.00 88.00 880.00
Aux fuel tank weight 16.28 88.00 16.28
Subtotal 1,393.28 58.56 81,587.28
fuel 108.00 76.00 8,208.00
Aux fuel 60.00 88.00 5,280.00
1,561.28 60.90 95,075.28
MTOW 1450
Available -111.28
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 8:19 AM Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
> Well said Pete.
>
> It may be worth the research and time to do the aft CG flight tests to se
e
> if extension of the rear limit is possible. Andy may be the best guy to
> go to.
>
> *Story time:*
>
> Years ago, after Sun 'n Fun, Andy and I flew, and we discussed for a
> moment the extended baggage bay and gear placement when loading. Unfortu
nately,
> our discussion was abruptly ended by the Former President of Europa
> Aircraft, Keith Wilson, who said "We spun tested and inch past the CG so
> who cares, we need to go." What a nice guy.
>
>
> When loading for my first long cross country with my Classic (XS cowl and
> FWF and Extended baggage that was home made but nearly exact except for t
he
> size of the access holes) I loaded as follows:
>
> With two bags (20" airline roll around at 15 pounds each planned but
> really 20 pounds) 10 pounds of tools and oil in the trigear bracing, flig
ht
> bag at 10 pounds, kids toys, hair curlers and essentials, and full fuel
> (new fuel tank and filled to the neck), I computed the weight in the rear
> at right at 80 pounds (or so, as I only was figuring 50). My gear legs
> are at 70 inches so all was fine until I pushed the tail down and the
> angle changed. Thud, the plane hit on the tail tie down and stayed there
> with no one in the seats. A recalculation of the "needed" baggage and
> its placement was made.
>
>
> The weight and balance was computed based on the short 88 inches from the
> POH which I knew was a stretch. Bags were arranged hard at the tank as
> was the tool bag and oil tucked in the X bracing of the trigear wells. F
light
> bag was held on top of the roll arounds under my baggage net. Kids toys
> and hair care essentials went at the aft bulkhead and I computed the weig
ht
> and arm to be 62.5. It was the fuel that surprised me. The new tank
> held a full 20 gallons to the top of my trigear neck not 18, why the
> difference I didn't measure but the fuel was carefully checked and found
to
> be 76 inches on the average from full to empty. A trigear sitting level
> can pack a few more cubic inches in I guess. A new recalculation of the
> weight and balance was made based on the fuel weight of the new tank and
> plumbing. My scales were giving me trouble, and it took a couple of days
.
> Not much of a CG change, but still my assumptions were not accurate. I
> needed to measure and weigh both airplane and bags and their placement th
en
> test.
>
>
> Of course, the Europa flew fine but the nose was just as I found in fligh
t
> testing at the full aft CG limit, just a little lighter in pitch on takeo
ff
> and damping in flight was still superb because of the well designed tail.
>
>
> It would be prudent to measure back from the joggle and recompute when
> planning your load in any aircraft then recompute via the 29.25" and do t
he
> calculations for full fuel and landing fuel. The Cherokee Six is one
> that scares the heck out of me as does the Cessna 207 when I see guys
> loading them willy nilly with large passengers and heavy bags.
>
>
> Trust no one, verify, measure and weigh. Don't arbitrarily build an
> intentionally nose heave A.P.S for load as landing and approach light
> weight with two full sized guys is a bit nose heavy in the flare. Buildi
ng
> tail heavy for two 250 pound pilots is not prudent either for flying solo
> with baggage. Do the measurements and calculate. It's just math. Then
> compute your CG for many loadings and test carefully. I learned when
> converting a Zenith 601 for a very large individual (275 pounder) require
d
> me to actually weigh the aircraft with him in it and a second pilot with
> and without fuel (tank is at the firewall and in the wings) to get a hand
le
> on his loading restrictions. That was my first eye opener on these small
> aircraft. If you stepped on the Zeniths aft mounted step to get in the
> plane with him in it and full fuel, the plane fell on its butt and damage
d
> the rudder. What a lesson. I was delighted with the compact arrangement
> of the Europa for CG control.
>
>
> Within the CG limits and especially from 59-62.5 inches I find the Europa
> delightful. Make sure stab throws are near the max for assured control.
Follow
> prudent testing when near the limits of the CG. I find full forward CG
> to require a slightly faster round out if the stab is only 12 degrees up
> travel, and I find it more comfortable to carry 5 more knots in my aircra
ft
> if at the full forward CG. I moved the battery to the rear when I added
> the Airmaster and have never looked back. APS is right at 59 for N12AY.
>
>
> I keep an electronic fish scale (good to 25 pounds) and a tape measure
> handy when carrying props and things in the Europa that are heavy/bulky.
Sometimes
> when solo, I strap heavy props and things in the seat next to me.
>
> In your computations for your POH include the various loading extremes of
> max forward/aft possible, two pilot, fully loaded for cross country with
> full fuel and landing fuel. It is just math. I do mine on Excel for
> neatness and my Avare flight planning program now has the data for XC use
.
> The POH is in the aircraft with the actual fore and aft limitations on
> loading and my phone has EVERY manual loaded on the cloud and the data ca
rd
> for the airplane and its equipment.
>
>
> If you are building an airplane and watching TV at night, change your
> priorities and do the research on every component in your aircraft, and f
or
> CG that means loading assumptions too. YOU are the manufacturer and
> therefore responsible for the safety of your aircraft, documentation,
> flight restrictions and operational limitations. Oh by the way, stay
> flight proficient and married at the same time. Aircraft builders are
> busy people.
>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Bud Yerly
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <
> owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete Jeffers
> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 5:48 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> Stupid you may call the position of the zero datum but the reason is
> mostly
>
> historical, very practical and it standardizes critical numbers like CG
>
> positions across our fleet of Classics, XS's & motor gliders.
>
> Taken in order the history started with the Classic where zero datum was
> the
>
> front of the engine cowl. It was at this time also considered logical for
>
> the sake of non mathematicians to keep all figures positive and not
> confuse
>
> the issue with negative numbers. You don't have to look very far to find
>
> stupid errors in critical calculations caused by deliberately introducing
>
> negative moments.
>
> As the XS nose was extended slightly further forward it was sensible to
>
> leave zero datum as was. Hence the 29 3/4" point on ALL marks of Europa i
s
>
> where the front of the engine cowl would have been had it been a classic.
>
> This means, and this is important, that the CG limits and fuel tank pilot
>
> passenger and baggage load points for all marks are consistent. It all
> makes
>
> for less risk of confusion and error.
>
> Had the first type of Europa to be produced been an XS then zero datum
> would
>
> probably have been a quite different location.
>
> Pete J
>
> PS There may be good reason to change the baggage station of 88 ins to a
>
> more realistic figure in light of the fact that this figure is still the
>
> same as was applicable prior to the extended baggage bay mod.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of John Wighton
>
> Sent: 06 April 2021 10:58
>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question
>
>
> Gentlemen (and Ladies, if present),
>
>
> All this discussion on CG moment arm made my weekend, an absolute hoot fr
om
>
> start to finish (is it finished yet?). This is not helped by the rather
>
> cack-handed approach prescribed in the POH.
>
>
> A reasonably common piece of data in this thread is the location of the
>
> datum. But even that may vary depending on who/how weighed/measured the
>
> aircraft - treat this as a variable across the fleet, but a constant for
>
> your aeroplane. Any calculation of W&B needs to use the actual mass as
>
> measured and the actual moment arm as measured.
>
>
> Weigh the item (you, pax, the dog, grannies apple pie or your bag of
>
> birdseed). Use that data in a spreadsheet.
>
>
> Link:
>
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lig
htaircraftassociation.co.uk%2Fengineering%2FWeight%2520and%2520balance&
data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435
aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978551386%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiM
C4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata
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>
> /w_and_b_main.html
>
>
> Skydemon also provides a very nice W&B calculator (it is legally necessar
y
>
> to do this for EVERY flight), which makes it easy-peazy.
>
>
> The moment arm I use for baggage is a measurement to the centre of the
> bay.
>
> However, the Europa Aircraft method of establishing the FS 0.0 datum is a
>
> comedy. A position 29.25" fwd of the "Rear of joggle for cowling in
>
> fuselage moulding" needs to be marked.
>
>
> This is totally unnecessary - the cowling to fuselage joint is as good a
>
> datum as any. It requires all moment arms forward of it to be given a
>
> negative sign (for the initial W&B calculation and any subsequent firewal
l
>
> forward mods) and all those aft of it to be positive.
>
>
> Just measure along the horizontal fuselage datum WL (level sill can be us
ed
>
> as per POH) to the FS of the item to be measured.
>
>
> Attached is an extract from the POH (note the depicted Trigear also has a
>
> secreted mainwheel protruding from the fuselage!).
>
>
> --------
>
> John Wighton
>
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.
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