Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with your
prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna 172 for
many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually turn more than
180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the
runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back
up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of
altitude-
possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would call out "decision
height" even if no one else was listening as a reminder of whether I would
control crash straight ahead... or turn back to r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are lets say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots
MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts and
failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3 feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing speed is
75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black rubber
and
was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any
aircraft,
but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might be a lifesaver.
So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed, flap, weight,
prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps up
(trigear,
100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a personal
rule
of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth deriving in
advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed
pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps down
(we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be required
for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly result the
inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know
that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe
option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible
if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub or
bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk away from
it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands)
and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it
highlights
the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did my conversion
training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn
back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times.
I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and
300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130
pilot/instructor.
He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large
golf
course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the runway
and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had
an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can that
mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We
may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote: Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
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