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Europa-List: Europa props for Subaru

Subject: Europa-List: Europa props for Subaru
From: GLENN CROWDER <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:35:55

>Hey Tom!
>     The problem for me (and also for any Warp Drive users on higher 
>performance aircraft) is that
>the Warp Drive blades do not have enough twist to be efficient at (or 
>allow) higher speeds.
>Every propeller has a designed in "pitch speed" that it is most efficient 
>at.
>  The WD prop was originally designed as a prop for ultralight aircraft.  
>Ultralight aircraft are typically
>too draggy to go faster than 100 mph.  It is a very fine propeller for this 
>application and for speeds
>up to about 135 mph.  Higher speeds than this require a large amount of 
>pitch in close to the
>hub to avoid going into reverse thrust in this area.  The WD is very 
>efficient at its designed speed
>but it is a one size fits all approach.  One can obtain higher performance 
>(at least at higher speeds)
>by designing a prop with more twist.  At the same time, you need a wider 
>blade to absorb higher
>horsepower.
>  As far as the Airmaster goes, I'm sure its a very fine propeller, but it, 
>the NSI CAP 140 (which I
>have), the Kremen and others all use the WD blades.  I think the Arplast 
>uses their own blades.
>The big benefit I observed with the NSI CAP 140 was a shorter takeoff roll 
>and slightly better initial climb, but I played with it for minutes at a 
>time at WOT and there was no improvement at higher speeds over a ground 
>adjustable WD prop.  How could there be, they are the same blades!
>  I did some research a while back and received the following reply from 
>Stuart Gort Sr, owner of
>PowerFin props.  He is a very helpful fellow.
>  Let me know if I can be of further help!
>
>>From: "Stuart Gort Sr." <info@powerfin.com>
>>To: "GLENN CROWDER" <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
>>Subject: Re: powerfin prop for Subaru powered Europa
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:00:47 -0800
>>
>>Hi Glen,
>>
>>The Powerfin B-model has only about 2 more degrees of twist than the Warp. 
>>The twist is important on your application because as you approach the 
>>fast part of the flight envelope, the inboard sections of the prop begin 
>>to go into beta mode. This means the air is being accelerated over the 
>>lower camber faster than over the upper camber, essentially making reverse 
>>thrust (or at least making enough drag to be the main factor in acheiving 
>>equilibium - no more acceleration). Our prop, because of the 2 more 
>>degrees might have some positive effect but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. 
>>Chances are that any improvement would be negligible. For airplanes in the 
>>135 mph range, a proper design might have about 40 - 50 degrees of twist 
>>from the tip to the most inboard definable sections. A Warp, at 64" has 
>>about 13 degrees. So, the lack of twist on the Warp and the resulting drag 
>>on the inboard stations is certainly slowing you down but there is no off 
>>the shelf design out there yet that can well accomodate your plane.
>>
>>It's not moment of inertia that is making vibration for you. It's 
>>resonance typical to running a two blade prop with a reduction ratio near 
>>2:1. The blade is almost in the exact same postion every time the engine 
>>fires. Having a ratio that is near 2:1 but not exactly helps this a little 
>>but 2.04:1 is pretty close and the fact that 204 is divisable by who know 
>>how many factors isn't helping either. It takes some time to fully 
>>explain, but in a nutshell; the more factors 204 has, the less number of 
>>revolutions the propeller makes before the blade blade is in the exact 
>>same postion as the engine fires. It's complicated but if 203 was a prime 
>>number (I don't know if it is), then a 2.03:1 gear drive would result in 
>>the blade going around 203 times before it was in the exact same postion 
>>as the engine fires, reducing the propensity to resonate. Not eliminating 
>>it but minimizing it to its lowest possibility.
>>
>>In short, you're stuck with a little vibration if you want that speed 
>>because the two blade, fixed pitch prop guys are the only ones making 
>>props with more twist. That's why you're getting the desired speed with 
>>just about every one. You could hope to find a slightly different ratio 
>>that meets the above requirements (doubtful). You could try a Powerfin 
>>B-model 64" and see how it does but it's a weak premise to buy a prop on 
>>unless you enjoy experimenting. I wouldn't sell you one by making any 
>>grand claims though.
>>
>>Our Apex 912 hub will fit your flange perfectly. You are correct. The 
>>pattern is exactly the same as the 912, 912S. and 914 pattern.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Stuart Gort - Powerfin Inc.
>>
>>
>>From: GLENN CROWDER
>>   To: info@powerfin.com
>>   Cc: gcrowder2@hotmail.com
>>   Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:47 AM
>>   Subject: powerfin prop for Subaru powered Europa
>>
>>
>>   Hello Stuart and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>>     I'm looking for a better prop for my Subaru EA81 powered Europa.  I 
>>am
>>   currently using a 3 blade 64" dia Warp Drive and is doing OK but I 
>>would
>>   like to improve cruise speeds if possible.
>>     My field elevation near Denver is 5100 ft and I typically fly at 
>>around
>>   7000 ft.  With the Warp Drive
>>   at this altitude, I typically attain about 130 kts GPS on a still day. 
>>Climb
>>   rate is about 1000 fpm.
>>   The WD is very smooth if you tweak the blades extremely carefully.  It 
>>takes
>>   a lot of time to set
>>   the blades.
>>     I have tried a couple of two bladed wood props and get better speed 
>>and
>>   climb but I get an
>>   unacceptable level of vibration or resonance.  It is similiar to flying 
>>in a
>>   twin engine plane and having
>>   the engine speeds out of synch.  I have a Warnke 64 x 62 prop that 
>>climbs
>>   very well and gets about
>>   10 kts better at the top end.  I also tried a GT (Italian) prop that 
>>also
>>   improved speed and climb
>>   but also had the same resonance problem.
>>     The WD prop is a one size fits all approach but has very little twist 
>>on
>>   the blades and very
>>   narrow chord width (4 1/4").  If I keep increasing the pitch of the 
>>blades,
>>   I get to a point where
>>   I don't go any faster but climb rate is much worse.  I think I need a 
>>blade
>>   that is slightly wider in
>>   chord and has more twist like the Warnke and GT props I have been 
>>trying.
>>     I found the Bolly Prop website from Australia and like that because 
>>their
>>   blades seem wider with
>>   more twist and fit my WD hub but I can't get any response from them 
>>after
>>   several emails.
>>     My motor is about 120 hp at 5100 ft, (was dynoed at 137 hp at 1000 
>>ft),
>>   has a Marcotte gear
>>   drive with 2.04 ratio, redline is 5600 rpm, top speed with WD is about 
>>130
>>   kts, cruise speed
>>   115 kts, prop dia 64".  The prop hub is the rotax 4.000" pattern, 6 
>>bolts
>>   8mm dia with drive
>>   lugs .505" dia that protrude out .505".  Centering boss is 1.850" dia 
>>and
>>   protrudes out .500".
>>   This is the identical pattern used on the Rotax 912 and 914 I believe.  
>>I am
>>   very interested in your
>>   props due to the low inertia which I think contributes to prop 
>>resonance.
>>   If the WD prop is
>>   smooth, it seems like yours should be even better and easier to adjust.
>>     Thanks for your help!
>>
>>                                                            Glenn Crowder
>>                                                            740 Braun St
>>                                                            Golden, Co 
>>80401
>>                                                            303-520-3659
>>
>>   gcrowder2@hotmail.com
>>
>>   _________________________________________________________________
>

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