Thanks very much, Will, I now understand. Sounds like a smart way of
getting a good engine combination.
Cheers,
Brian Phillips.
On 14/11/2022 12:42 am, William Daniell wrote:
> Yup - the original 2.27:1 wouldnt make the revs with the airmaster
> even in Guaymaral at 8500. My previous plane a ICP Savannah with an
> Ivo had no problem with the 2.27 gearbox. I had the ivo with the
> narrow blades. The 914 gearbox is 2.43:1.
>
> Theres a lot of experience with this conversion in Colombia - they
> even claim they turbo-ed the 912 before rotax. It could be true - you
> never know with Colombia. But in any case I wasnt the pioneer. Its
> a well understood process. The chap who did it for me turned up all
> the required components with nicely welded stainless exhausts etc
> installed them and fired up the motor. Worked ever since no faffing
> about.
>
> In any case a 914 would have probably been the way to go but Im a
> cheapskate.Or rather it would have cost me the price plus another
> 15% import tax raising the price to almost USD40k. What with labor
> and parts my current engine cost USD25k.
>
> You dont have to mess with the TCU and it retains the mechanical fuel
> pump (you need an electric pump as well). The mech pump will just
> about keep you flying at 22 MAP.
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 00:58 Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for that Will. Clearly you know what you are doing as you
> have been running it since 2006. Can I ask, why do you need to
> change the gearbox ratio?
> Once you installed the turbo system, did you have to adjust or
> replace it to get it to absorb the power available at higher
> altitudes?
>
> Cheers,
> Brian Phillips.
>
> On 13/11/2022 12:33 am, William Daniell wrote:
>> I use up to 36 although lots of people in Colombia go up to
>> 40. So yes pretty much the same boost as a 914.
>>
>> If you use a stock 912 you have to add the turbo system and
>> airbox exhaust etc as you would expect. And also the oil system
>> to feed the turbo none of which is unexpected. A bigger main jet
>> is normal. However the gochta is that you need to change the
>> gearbox ratio and I put in a slipper clutch. All of this can
>> actually be done in a day (the exhaust and airbox are made
>> beforehand.)
>>
>> I have a manual waste gate in this engine but in the previous one
>> I had a simple wastegate controller like a car
>>
>> I flown with this engine since 2006 never had an issue.
>>
>> The turbo is from a Renault diesel van - made by mitisubishi
>>
>> Nitrile gaskets on the carbs are necessary otherwise they suck
>> air at altitude.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 23:16 Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few
>> accumulated hours to build reliable predictability. At least
>> the big bore kit does not need any changes to crank, which is
>> essentially the same as the 914 with the same output. The
>> lighter than standard pistons may even reduce crank stresses.
>>
>> I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem
>> to remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery
>> issues. I believe the crank fillets are smaller on auto
>> engines compared to A/C engines, and with the 100% duty
>> factor can cause cracks, not sure if this applies to the suby
>> though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K miles, no
>> problems, great engine.
>>
>> William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember
>> you used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do
>> you actually add a bit more boost in?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Brian Phillips.
>>
>> On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:
>>> My experience conversing with Edges principal over the
>>> years, fwiw, is that he is chock full of confidence, many
>>> good ideas but peppered with some critical bad ones -which
>>> he will not acknowledge, and lets his customers prove him
>>> wrong. And some have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too
>>> few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
>>>
>>> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the
>>> engineering basics).
>>>
>>> Difficult to watch.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> PeteZ
>>>
>>>> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips
>>>> <barp99@gmail.com> <mailto:barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice
>>>> below, much appreciated, your background knowledge never
>>>> ceases to amaze me.
>>>>
>>>> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all
>>>> the retrofit work, along with the weight issues, its just
>>>> not worth it, and I would never finish it. I am still
>>>> interested in the 912Is, & was thinking about the Edge
>>>> 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below about some of the
>>>> US based big bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR
>>>> does seem a little high, combined with no detonation
>>>> detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge
>>>> performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they
>>>> supply a fuel pressure reg that increases the rail
>>>> pressure, so the pump/s are working harder, again an added
>>>> risk. Add to that limited operational history, makes the
>>>> 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000
>>>> compromises flying in close formation.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Brian Phillips.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>>>>>
>>>>> Weight is the enemy of an airplane.Especially the Europa,
>>>>> as it is a very compact aircraft.If I add 15 horsepower,
>>>>> but it moves the CG forward, requires a prop extension and
>>>>> a constant speed prop, the CG is going to be somewhere
>>>>> around the spinner.Now we move the battery back, run
>>>>> longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as
>>>>> possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance
>>>>> the nose. The weight just keeps going up. The Europa XS is
>>>>> 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa Classic even
>>>>> with the XS fuselage module and firewall forward.The 912
>>>>> 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will give 30
>>>>> ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at
>>>>> altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the
>>>>> 120-130 knot range.The 912S raised the cruise about 5
>>>>> knots more.The 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to
>>>>> at least 140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the
>>>>> 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.The mono is
>>>>> faster and lighter of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel
>>>>> injection.Customers moved the boost up to get more power
>>>>> but complained it burned more fuel.The only advantage was
>>>>> more power with less reliability.Fuel burn was basically
>>>>> the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.So, what did I
>>>>> gain?Slightly more power for climb but more heat to
>>>>> dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow climb was
>>>>> necessary to cool.BTU requirements are the same *for the
>>>>> same amount of power* at the same fuel air ratio and
>>>>> varies little with displacement.Aircraft engines run at
>>>>> constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as
>>>>> good as fuel injection except for altitude performance of
>>>>> a normally aspirated engine with no leaning.The Bing stops
>>>>> leaning after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated
>>>>> engine.So, an after market leaning system is necessary for
>>>>> the high altitude flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the
>>>>> 912/912S.The Rotax 914 is ideal for higher altitude
>>>>> operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a
>>>>> higher cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the
>>>>> Europa into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is
>>>>> now as good as the 912S but as we all know, there are
>>>>> techniques and inspections required to keep it running
>>>>> like new.
>>>>>
>>>>> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with
>>>>> only carb maintenance/oil changes.Overspeed of the engine
>>>>> is an issue many ignore.The valves can and do contact the
>>>>> piston if oversped.Prop strikes are ignored also by many
>>>>> STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean
>>>>> up the valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press
>>>>> on.Repeat at 1000 hours and the engine is good to 1500
>>>>> hours.The cleanup of the valves restores compression to
>>>>> like new or better than new and is really a surprise when
>>>>> a 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance
>>>>> engines, but I do with the so called "Big Bore" engines
>>>>> done here in the States some years ago.They do put out
>>>>> more power.But for how long?Over the years the stock Rotax
>>>>> 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and last.Most
>>>>> of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200
>>>>> hours.But we have many cowboys here in the States that
>>>>> just want more power but won't pay for it to get power
>>>>> _and reliability_.I was around for the first of these Big
>>>>> Bore mods.As Edge Performance has found out, the crank
>>>>> shaft, and many other formally robust Rotax parts are now
>>>>> under more stress and required "upgrade".This costs
>>>>> money.My hats off to them, as they have at least backed
>>>>> their engines.In their defense, some of our cowboys here
>>>>> in the States are running regular car fuel. This causes
>>>>> detonation for sure. I cant fix stupid!
>>>>>
>>>>> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will
>>>>> need more gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase
>>>>> inspection requirements, require greater cooling mass, and
>>>>> of course add cost.An airplane is 20,000 compromises
>>>>> flying in close formation.If you change one thing, you
>>>>> affect 20 others.Choose wisely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example:Charts are scare still for the 915.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20
>>>>> more than the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27
>>>>> L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>>>>>
>>>>> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed
>>>>> increase of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is
>>>>> better than most.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does
>>>>> not increase it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root
>>>>> for the trigear.The mono is much better at still basically
>>>>> a square root curve.More horsepower doesnt give me
>>>>> impressive efficiency or speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a
>>>>> constant speed prop without issue or added extensions, has
>>>>> a reasonable fuel burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in
>>>>> about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb.I can put out 70 to
>>>>> 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for
>>>>> a trigear) or max speed.Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore
>>>>> require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no
>>>>> advantage.The 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues
>>>>> with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally
>>>>> from cruise to max continuous from the surface to service
>>>>> ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which is our human
>>>>> physiological limit without cabin pressurization).We know
>>>>> how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can
>>>>> setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my
>>>>> laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a special
>>>>> dongle.I dont have Windows 11 yet, but it should work
>>>>> also.Carbs are easy to balance, and the installation
>>>>> manual is easy to follow.Always follow the engine
>>>>> installation manual in conjunction with the airframe
>>>>> firewall forward manual .
>>>>>
>>>>> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine
>>>>> mount and does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall
>>>>> forwards.Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the 915
>>>>> to a 912/914 airframe.The 915 is unmaintainable but for
>>>>> plugs and oil change without a buds system for the
>>>>> average owner to tell you what its doing but the
>>>>> troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce.Much study and
>>>>> patience is needed as the 915 goes through its teething
>>>>> issues.It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and will
>>>>> overheat easily during an extended taxi out.Automatic
>>>>> systems means you the pilot lose control.Many 912iS owners
>>>>> hate the power drop off and find economy only comes
>>>>> through lower power.They have found fuel burn is the same
>>>>> for the same speed after an engine change from the S to
>>>>> the iS.The 915 has a similar issue with the power
>>>>> requirements.It is not like hopping into your BMW tubo and
>>>>> everything works.It is still like the 1980s first gen
>>>>> fuel injection and turbo mods.Today it all works
>>>>> flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling
>>>>> requirements and components taking up more space under the
>>>>> hood.The 915 is not quite a plug and play engine
>>>>> electrically either.Look at Sling and their learning
>>>>> curve.The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.The two place not so
>>>>> much.Guys are looking hard at the difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP
>>>>> engines of light weight.It is fast and efficient for a
>>>>> 100HP 500 pound payload airplane.More weight makes the
>>>>> induced drag go up.The mono airframe was not designed to
>>>>> go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty
>>>>> weight of 900 pounds.If you go above 900 pounds empty
>>>>> weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and range is
>>>>> decreased.In the States, a 1000 mile per day range
>>>>> airplane is essential for getting around west of the
>>>>> Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to
>>>>> Florida for the winter, they need that range also.Frankly,
>>>>> a bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and
>>>>> a longer day.More horsepower is not as important as more
>>>>> torque.Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a
>>>>> trouble-free steed with stock components.Work on drag
>>>>> reduction and keeping the weight down.Not by slapping more
>>>>> horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very small
>>>>> airframe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bud Yerly
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
>>>>> <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf
>>>>> Of Pete
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
>>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your
>>>>> Europa this week - 08/11/22
>>>>>
>>>>> <peterz@zutrasoft.com <mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks
>>>>> (cracking), and single point of failure (FI).
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> PeteZ
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51
>>>>> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at
>>>>> if forward mass is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is
>>>>> said to finally be showing reliability but i would still
>>>>> choose Edge over Jabiru
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
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>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> - The Europa-List Email Forum -
>>>>>
>>>>> -->
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> William Daniell
>> LONGPORT
>> +1 786 878 0246
>
> --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
|