Creighton uses the FC10.
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of Mike Christine Duane <DuaneFamly@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 3:59:10 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel management
>
If I might ask, which totalizer did you chose?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 5, 2018, at 7:27 AM, crouto <crouton@well.com> wrote:
>
>
> I tried it with just the footwell lndicator. Bubbles made it inaccurate.
I could purge it by horsing the airplane into a very steep zoom. The bub
bles could be seen climbing the gauge tube but in addition to the anxiety s
uffered by the passenger, it did not always completely purge the gauge syst
em.
> So I put in a totalizer and 1 red cube thinking I could factor in the ret
urn amount. I couldn=92t.
> So in went another red cube in the return line and, hey presto, fuel adde
d equals fuel used. I have a straight 912 and a long ranger tank. In a 24
gallon burn (indicated) the added fuel is within 0.3gallon less than indic
ated. I consider this a safety margin and have no plans to mess with it.
> The footwell tube is useful for indicating the aircraft is fueled, but in
the monowheel tail down stance it is not an accurate quantity gauge. By t
he way, since the installation of the long ranger the bubble problem seems
to have nearly disappeared. Go figure.
> Creighton Smith A-009
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 4, 2018, at 2:34 AM, Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list@matro
nics.com> wrote:
>>
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>> Europa-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Sun 06/03/18: 5
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> Today's Message Index:
>> ----------------------
>>
>> 1. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Management (Bud Yerly)
>> 2. 08:02 AM - Re: Gurgling (burping) (Bud Yerly)
>> 3. 09:09 AM - Static problem? (h&jeuropa)
>> 4. 10:11 AM - Re: Static problem? (Robert Borger)
>> 5. 11:46 AM - Re: Gurgling (burping) (JonathanMilbank)
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 1 ___________________________
__________
>>
>>
>> From: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com>
>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Management
>>
>> I couldn=92t agree more with your comments on the EI 5 fuel totalizer
with
>> differential module.
>>
>> I have a sight gauge as depicted on my website.
>>
>> I have had a capacitance gauge from GRT / Princeton
>>
>> I have the EI 5 fuel totalizer.
>>
>>
>> Painfully, I calibrated my tank (marks on the tank, sight gauge, and a c
apa
>> citance sender.
>>
>>
>> Capacitance: If I change fuel from AV Gas to Premium Auto, it read in
err
>> or. I have marks on the outside of my probe for calibration so I could
ben
>> ch check it, it reads different based on ethanol content, or none, MOGAS
or
>> AV Gas as bench checked and in the aircraft. What a pain. If there is
to
>> o much ethanol (10%) or water it kills my capacitance probe. I replaced
it
>> , now it is intermittent and I again in frustration I pulled it and plug
ged
>> the hole in the tank top with a bolt. Great trend indicator when it wor
ke
>> d, I either had gas or not, and nothing accurate in between beyond the f
irs
>> t fuel type change. Bad luck I suppose. The Europa resistance gauge i
s f
>> airly accurate as it is designed for the tank shape, but again, is a tre
nd
>> indicator and not able to be calibrated by the builder.
>>
>>
>> My sight gauge has been re-plumbed to prevent fuel trapping as my vent s
ide
>> of the gauge resides in between the tank and the fiberglass module top.
I
>> f a bit of fuel trapped in that vent side doesn=92t drain down, it mov
es my
>> gauge by the size of the trapped fuel. Now with my slight gauge re-plum
b,
>> it runs almost completely down hill and is damned adequate. However, I
s
>> till have to open the cap, blow in the vent nipple, and then the gauge
is
>> accurate after every fill. I now run the plumbing completely down hill
and
>> fuel trapping is still possible during steep climbs and won=92t clear
unti
>> l back to level flight for a while.
>>
>>
>> The EI FP5 I own was calibrated out of the box. I have two flow scans f
or
>> the 914, one on feed and the other on return. If I put 15 gallons in th
e t
>> ank, the EI reads zero as the pumps cavitate.
>>
>>
>> In my building experience, I followed convention on using one fuel cube/
flo
>> w scan for the Jabiru or Rotax 912 series. Since the Jab has no return
it
>> is fairly accurate and of course the return, which is unmetered in the R
ota
>> x 912 series, is an estimate on fuel at best. It does give a total whic
h i
>> s lower than actual, which is OK, I guess.
>>
>>
>> A couple of years ago we did do a return on the Rotax 912 (80 HP) on Cre
igh
>> ton Smiths aircraft and it has proven quite reliable. His unit was a Fl
igh
>> t Data Systems unit called the FC 10 with dual fuel flows (red cubes).
It
>> worked very well even with the very low fuel flows of the 912. I had ne
ve
>> r heard of Flight Data Systems and the unit is a bit on the cheap lookin
g s
>> ide, but it works well for less than my EI 5FPL with differential module
.
>>
>>
>> For those with the GRT EIS engine monitor, it can be rewired to allow tw
o r
>> ed cubes or flow scans if not purchased with fuel flow in mind. It is a
lso
>> adjustable but time consuming to get dead on unless you let the factory
se
>> t it. Dynon I understand is using the red cube and my RV friends seem t
o l
>> ike it on the O-320. The LSA guys with only one cube are not impressed
wit
>> h the accuracy on the 912S and those with two report it is OK, but not a
ble
>> to calibrate it for some reason. I never researched it.
>>
>>
>> Bottom line,
>>
>> I have had four fuel quantity determining possibilities:
>>
>> My watch ( I have 3 hours at low cruise ((4.5/hr)) and 2.5 at high crui
se
>> (5.5/hr))
>>
>> My sight gauge.
>>
>> My EI fuel flow, and time until empty based on the amount I put in and i
npu
>> t.
>>
>> My now defunct capacitance panel gauge (which was just replaced with dua
l E
>> GT) has been hit or miss.
>>
>>
>> I am the department of redundant redundancy on fuel and have found the m
ost
>> accurate fuel device is my fuel flow and a watch.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Bud Yerly
>>
>> Sent from Mail< https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=ht
tps%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7
C%7Ca1b6dc38b9d742f580d008d5cb00ee87%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1
%7C0%7C636638127210339272&sdata=QwX%2FfeDFbZAIRluFLY9mWpBQ8mtAAQOAR9pSL9T
o6U8%3D&reserved=0> for Window
>> s 10
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@m
atr
>> onics.com> on behalf of graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>
>> Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 2:44:54 AM
>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Management
>>
>>
>> My conclusion was the same and I went on a journey with this whole thing
:
>> First I moved the pipe to come up between the seats; this has proved use
ful
>> for seeing how much fuel I have when in the hangar before I fly although
s
>> ometimes an air bubble in the and fuel in the vent for the pipe means th
e r
>> eading is misleading. Its affected by where the plane is parked - inclin
ati
>> on so I check it at the same place in the hangar. Occasionally I have us
ed
>> it to second check in flight. When the fuel is low (below 18ltrs), its h
ard
>> to see.
>>
>> Then I installed a capacitive sensor in the tank with a gauge. This is k
ind
>> of useful as a second check and reliable but the scale is way off due to
t
>> he tank shape. Its also hard to get a good seal on the sender flange. I
kee
>> p meaning to add a lineariser circuit on it.
>>
>> Then I have a differential totaliser (EI 5PL or something); this has bee
n g
>> reat and a pretty reliable indication of state, flow economy etc (so lo
ng
>> as fuel added is entered correctly). I tend to fill to the brim regularl
y t
>> o be absolutely sure of state.
>> So with the three indicators I got to a reasonable level of confidence.
Not
>> sure i'd want to be without any of them now.
>>
>> --------
>> Graeme Bird
>> G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini
2 a
>> xis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD
on
>> Nexus, SmartA3
>> 325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
>> g@gdbmk.co.uk
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum
s.m
>> atronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D480546%23480546&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8
1e9
>> b4e0005b492422cf08d5c78ba9a4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%
7C6
>> 36634325008274906&sdata=KDQyvIk2y1QfYfDSHuotqfvcVJq9GFbm9oJZAV87ZsU%3D
&re
>> served=0
>>
>>
>> F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=02%7C01%7C%7C81e9
b4e
>> 0005b492422cf08d5c78ba9a4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6
366
>> 34325008274906&sdata=9g3BbD4C5ryxDfiV%2Fivn3M7L8GK0EyH4SUGZl77ItlY%3D&
res
>> erved=0
>> F%2Fforums.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C81e9b4e0005b492422cf08d5c78
ba9
>> a4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636634325008274906&sdata
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9a4
>> %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636634325008274906&sdata
=3S
>> Zej1AioLVaB4V7phJEdNy1aYiOK03IJuSUPmqQXW0%3D&reserved=0
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422
>> cf08d5c78ba9a4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636634325008
274
>> 906&sdata=AMLOQDkXtGKo4WVYnV0FN04gaUtnsBrOELc9TIg1IZ4%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 2 ___________________________
__________
>>
>>
>> From: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com>
>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Gurgling (burping)
>>
>> Jonathan,
>>
>> It is not uncommon for the oil level in the tank to drain down overnight
.
>> Even on a new engine. The tank can drain into the crankcase two ways on
a
>> 912UL (S). If the tank is full, and the return line has oil in it, it s
iph
>> ons down into the crankcase until the siphon is broken. That is only a
sma
>> ll amount of oil on the dipstick.
>>
>>
>> The other is through the feed line, through the oil cooler and into the
oil
>> pump. The oil pump has tight clearances, but thin oil will drain quite
ra
>> pidly through the pump into the crankcase via the many feed passages. Y
ou
>> are right, it could be a seal in the oil pump was not changed on your re
bui
>> ld or the oil pump shaft has worn beyond limits (check service bulletin
912
>> -032). This internal seal leak doesn=92t show normally, until the oil
pump
>> case to pump seal begins to leak. The case to oil pump is just sealed w
it
>> h 515. This is an easy fix and all external and right up front for your
me
>> chanic. So Look.
>>
>>
>> On the other hand, you would have low oil pressure if your pressure reli
ef
>> spring/ball were stuck so I doubt that is a problem.
>>
>>
>> Lastly, if you have a feed oil line leak at the tank, or internal in the
pu
>> mp, air is introduced into your feed line to the oil pump. This prevent
s o
>> il getting to the pump, but doesn=92t really affect the burp. If your
oil
>> pressure comes up quickly and when you pull the plugs and spin the engin
e b
>> y hand, you get oil pressure, that is not a factor. That is a difficult
is
>> sue to trace. The only way to check is try using light air pressure on
the
>> oil tank overflow / vent line and remove listen for the oil moving or re
mo
>> ve the oil feed at the pump and check for air. I really doubt that is a
pro
>> blem.
>>
>>
>> Note:
>>
>> I found Mobile one synthetic drained quickly and the Aeroshell Sport plu
s 4
>> less. I would not be concerned. BUT:
>>
>>
>> 50 blades on a 912S is quite a lot of spinning. (Normal for my old 914.
)
>> If you pause on each compression, it should only be about 10 blades of s
pin
>> ning to get a gurgle, but that is only based on new (er) 912S engines.
The
>> 912 and 914 tend to take more spinning to the verge of a heart attack on
m
>> ine.
>>
>>
>> Do check for static leaks on your fittings as a Rotax will not leak oil
ext
>> ernally unless something is wrong. If you have oil anywhere on the outs
ide
>> of your engine, oil pump, gearbox, or oil cooler, please investigate and
s
>> olve it. If all is high and dry, it is probably just that shaft oil sea
l o
>> n the oil pump is leaking internally. This is not a huge problem, but w
arr
>> ants checking.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Bud Yerly
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail< https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=ht
tps%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7
C%7Ca1b6dc38b9d742f580d008d5cb00ee87%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1
%7C0%7C636638127210339272&sdata=QwX%2FfeDFbZAIRluFLY9mWpBQ8mtAAQOAR9pSL9T
o6U8%3D&reserved=0> for Window
>> s 10
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@m
atr
>> onics.com> on behalf of jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:53:47 PM
>> Subject: Europa-List: Gurgling (burping)
>>
>>>
>>
>> My 912ULS engine has done 250 hours since complete strip-down and rebuil
d a
>> fter I bought it from an acknowledged Rotax engine expert. The three oth
ers
>> who share the Europa with me are all happy with how sweetly it runs. The
c
>> ompressions were measured very recently and are excellent (close to 200
psi
>> ). The oil pressure is good being in the vicinity of 4 bar. BUT....
>>
>> Nine times out of ten the oil drains quickly (overnight) from the tank t
o a
>> level below the flat on the dipstick. This wasn't always so and has beco
me
>> worse over time. It used to take about a dozen compressions done quite s
lo
>> wly to push the oil back into the tank, while these days it can often ta
ke
>> 50 or more compressions. Why?
>>
>> My supposition is that the oil escapes past the oil pump and the rate of
es
>> cape depends on the position of the pump lobes when at rest. So if the o
il
>> pressure remains good in flight, what's changed? Perhaps the oil pressur
e r
>> elief valve is sticking in some way?
>>
>> Your experience and knowledge of likely causes would be gratefully recei
ved
>> ..
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum
s.m
>> atronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D480527%23480527&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3
d65
>> 8908e052457c65e808d5c6785195%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%
7C6
>> 36633142417666692&sdata=hMIfL5dMQonZdtqvefaTxJDC7hsrnjywmpu%2BwZNmtDA%
3D&
>> reserved=0
>>
>>
>> F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3d65
890
>> 8e052457c65e808d5c6785195%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6
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>> 33142417822944&sdata=JvekXzI0ulHysaX%2FODq3XxP%2B%2F4FYaqi3Yj%2Bvcgy2b
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>> Y%3D&reserved=0
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851
>> 95%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636633142417822944&sdata
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195
>> %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636633142417822944&sdata
=YH
>> TCUzUK%2FxeOZQlBKQS7HDWvZMmtu2kWol3yPS%2BztvE%3D&reserved=0
>> F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3d658908e052457
c65
>> e808d5c6785195%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636633142417
822
>> 944&sdata=SLnhhGEn%2FyvEFMqqI2pHgYIij6YNzplrGEJDwgbUBX0%3D&reserved=
0
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 3 ___________________________
__________
>>
>>
>> Subject: Europa-List: Static problem?
>> From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43@att.net>
>>
>>
>> Two or three years ago our Garmin GMA 340 audio panel was damaged appare
ntly by
>> nearby lightning strike - we saw flash in far distance and then had to u
se copilot
>> ptt. Garmin repaired for $600 and said it was destroyed by lightning.
>>
>> On our trip to Petit Jean we were in some precipitation and getting boun
ced. ADSB
>> was showing lots of colors but it was just a short distance and ATC had
opposite
>> direction VFR traffic above us. Suddenly, no audio again. When we were
>> in the clear we found we could transmit by powering off the GMA 340 and
hear
>> ATC with it powered on but in PA mode.
>>
>> We talked to SteinAir and purchased a new Garmin GMA 240 audio panel par
tly in
>> hopes that the newer technology might be more resistant to being damaged
and a
>> new 240 was about the cost of repair of the 340.
>>
>> Stein, the owner, suggested we might want to add a single static wick to
each wingtip
>> and the top of the tail and connect them all together to our common grou
nd
>> point using #20 or so wire. The idea to drain off built up charge.
>>
>> Has anyone else had a similar problem and whats the opinion on static wi
cks?
>>
>> Jim & Heather
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum
s.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D480604%23480604&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca
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&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 4 ___________________________
__________
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Static problem?
>> From: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
>>
>>
>> Jim & Heather,
>>
>> I havent had that problem so this is all theory from a 70 year old physi
cist.
>>
>>
>> This is a really complex problem. You are flying a plastic, non-conduct
ive airframe.
>> Flying it through the air is like rubbing a plastic rod with a piece of
>> fur. Its going to generate a static charge. The charge resides on the o
uter
>> surface of the skin. No charge on the inter surface. Makes the skin of
the
>> aircraft like a big capacitor. Because the airframe is non-conductive t
hat charge
>> isnt going to move around much until it reaches a breakdown voltage some
where
>> and you can get a local discharge. Like through a an audio panel. Stat
ic
>> wicks out on the tips of the wings and empennage, even when connected wi
th conductive
>> media to the ground, will only dissipate the charge locally around the
>> wick. (Im not sure how well) And, I guess, maybe around the near field
of
>> the conductor if it were bare wire. Would those wicks dissipate the cha
rge that
>> took out the audio panel? Maybe, but probably not. Might those wicks r
educe
>> the overall charge and prevent a charge build up to ensure that there wa
s never
>> sufficient charge to harm the electronics? Maybe, maybe not.
>>
>> And, arent wicks supposed to dissipate the static charge off the airfram
e into
>> the air, not to aircraft ground? The idea being NOT to get the charge b
uildup
>> in the ground. I really dont see any benefit from static wicks on a pla
stic
>> airframe.
>>
>> Perhaps a better answer would be from Bob N. our electronics guru. He p
robably
>> has far more direct experience with this type of issue.
>>
>> Blue skies & tailwinds,
>> Bob Borger
>> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).
>> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules P
rop.
>> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
>> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
>> Cel: 817-992-1117
>> rlborger@mac.com
>>
>> On Jun 3, 2018, at 11:08 AM, h&jeuropa <butcher43@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Two or three years ago our Garmin GMA 340 audio panel was damaged appare
ntly by
>> nearby lightning strike - we saw flash in far distance and then had to u
se copilot
>> ptt. Garmin repaired for $600 and said it was destroyed by lightning.
>>
>> On our trip to Petit Jean we were in some precipitation and getting boun
ced. ADSB
>> was showing lots of colors but it was just a short distance and ATC had
opposite
>> direction VFR traffic above us. Suddenly, no audio again. When we were
>> in the clear we found we could transmit by powering off the GMA 340 and
hear
>> ATC with it powered on but in PA mode.
>>
>> We talked to SteinAir and purchased a new Garmin GMA 240 audio panel par
tly in
>> hopes that the newer technology might be more resistant to being damaged
and a
>> new 240 was about the cost of repair of the 340.
>>
>> Stein, the owner, suggested we might want to add a single static wick to
each wingtip
>> and the top of the tail and connect them all together to our common grou
nd
>> point using #20 or so wire. The idea to drain off built up charge.
>>
>> Has anyone else had a similar problem and whats the opinion on static wi
cks?
>>
>> Jim & Heather
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum
s.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D480604%23480604&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca
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&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 5 ___________________________
__________
>>
>>
>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Gurgling (burping)
>> From: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>
>>
>>
>> Bud,
>>
>> The outside of my engine and the oil cooler and tank are all free from a
ll traces
>> of leaks and the new hoses fitted a year ago are tightly clamped, so no
air
>> leaks.
>>
>> I've taken your advice and looked at Service Bulletin 912-032, so this i
s the avenue
>> that I'm probably going to investigate. Thanks very much.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum
s.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D480611%23480611&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca
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7C636638127210339272&sdata=UTce97Zl3DfPmimCcRNZ9KrTsOJobk%2BSJrPwqsE4SbM%
3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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