Bud, I am talking about a 45 degree turn at 50 kts flaps down, which has
a 445 ft diameter, and which is my chosen manoeuvre for turning in tight
circumstances like an EFATO if all ahead is disaster, or in a valley
situation if you cannot climb out the end in front of you.
As detailed in my article reproduced in the Flight Safety section on the
club website, I have practiced this repeatedly at a safe height and know
that I can turn through 360 degrees with height loss of just 440 ft (A
360 is convenient in being able to measure it precisely in relation to
some linear feature, but an actual turn back would be more of a tear
drop and likely to entail less turning and less height loss.) This is
using normal balanced flying techniques, eye balling the 45 degrees and
maintaining the airspeed at 50kts with the elevator. For me this is an
entirely practical mode of turning in a tight situation, that does not
need advanced aerobatic training, that fits the totally convincing
mathematical analysis, and which is well within the capabilities of the
average pilot to go and practice on his own until he is comfortable with
it. It is for each pilot to find what speed he is comfortable with, but
to my mind he would be ill advised to depart from the theoretical
optimum of 45 degrees Bank. But perhaps the worst plan is to try to
learn on the way down, having just been confronted by your first EFATO,
and never having practiced what works for you.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2016-05-01 20:10, Bud Yerly wrote:
> David,
> Double check. Diameter is about 800 feet, level 45 degrees, at 75 KTAS. See
> http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html [1]
> I'm playing fast and loose with the calcs also.
> Only during the turn is the altitude loss disregarded and using the now
> disproven
Newtonian physics, 1/2 at squared for 3 to 4 seconds is 145 to 257 feet.
>
> Keep in mind the turn is near 90 degrees entered and exited with an unloaded
roll using every bit of the lift vector pointed to the center of the turn
maximizing
rate of turn while pulling at 75 knots in the burble of the stall. The
G loading is only about 1.4 Gs by feel. The rate of turn is outstanding as one
could imagine and the radius very small. However, if entered with any more than
Zero to 1/4 G roll or exited in the same, the altitude loss and time goes up.
(Case in point: If one attempts a 20 degree nose high, 1 G, 360 degree aileron
roll, I bet you will complete the roll 60-80 degrees nose low and in a high
speed dive.) Never do rapid loaded 1 G roll in a fast roll attempt. Stan and
I did this because it is the "Impossible Turn". Well that is a red flag to a
bull to Stan and later I followed along so as not to be outdone. (The ego is a
terrible thing.)
>
> I was flying in a customers aircraft (I trimmed) and just finished full aft
> stick
stall practice (his plane is really a nice flyer), and asked if I could try
something I hadn't practiced in a while. I did the so called impossible turn
at 3500 AGL to see if I could still come close, as I hadn't practiced it in
some time. 350 feet. Owner tried it, a couple times and lost over a 1000 feet.
He is an excellent pilot, CFI, but not a practicing CFI any longer, current,
very comfortable in the aircraft, but not at max performance. We mused about
whether
one would actually try something like that down low, and agreed that without
extensive practice and ideal conditions, it was not sensible. But it can
be done in a controlled environment.
>
> If a turn back is attempted using normal level turn type techniques you are
> right,
the altitude loss is terrible. Please folks, let us not get into a sailplane
discussion here where the simulated tow rope break is done. The Europa short
wing is not a sailplane. It can roll very well, and if straight and true,
the pilot practiced, it can be flown well into the stall. (Especially if the
stall
strips are placed properly.) If one breaks into a spin during a hard turn,
the plane is out of rig or flown out of trim or side slipped by the pilot .
If aileron is introduced at any time during the stall, the down aileron will
stall
first and as you well know nothing good will happen after that. Usually a
snap will occur. Back seaters would keep their knees together to keep the
tendency
---From trying to correct roll with aileron at the stall, the rudder is the
tool to use with a well trained foot.
>
> These techniques are well taught in most aerobatic and out of control recover
maneuvering, also called upset training. Any load or backpressure in a turn
defeats
the roll rate, aggravates the lateral trim/rig, and can lead to a snap.
If you can't fly into a stall without fear, there is a reason. IT IS NOT TAUGHT
ANY LONGER. The folks that have flown with me know I am conservative, but
comfortable
in the corners of the envelope. I test the aircraft here until I can
fly them without reference to the ball, only looking over the nose until the
plane is coaxed into the stall and begins to mush straight ahead. Then I do it
in harder turns. A stall is a stall. The same rules apply, only the G loading
changes. We slow flight here in gentle turns very near the burble with
confidence.
Most folks do not get their plane rigged properly. Take the time and do
it. An out of rig airplane is a snake in the grass and dangerous. Fly well away
---From the stall and straight and level until you ge
t the
plane fixed. If the plane is OK and you can't, then avoid the area or get some
training. Even though the information is known, without practice and confidence,
the application of the knowledge for the first time is fraught with disaster.
Knowledge is worthless without practice and currency.
>
> As Dirty Harry said: A mans got to know his limitations. I know I try to. My
limits seem to be increasing every day I get older. Currency and familiarity are
necessary. If I am not current, I fly an airline profile and get a lot of
practice.
Fly as your instructors have taught you. Pay attention to your skills.
If it feels uncomfortable, don't do it until you get proper training. If your
plane can't get to the stall without rolling tendencies, fix it.
>
> Be conservative when close to the ground. As I mentioned to Will, my three
> mistakes
altitude is about 3000 AGL but:
>
> "My personal floor is 1000 AGL now for any cruising or maneuvering. I fly
> pretty
much straight and level, and no more than 45 degrees of bank and do not slow
below glide speed below that. Below 1000 feet you are in the
> low altitude structure and that is a different discipline. Low altitude
> maneuvering
or military low level training were disciplines well regulated and trained
for extensively. Your time to disaster is very short."
>
> Regards,
> Bud Yerly
>
> FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk
> SENT: Sunday, May 01, 2016 7:57 AM
> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
> SUBJECT: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc
>
> Bud & William, This has the makings of a rich seam of discussion! Firstly
> William,
I have been a bit sloppy in talking about my stall speed. In various formal
tests for initial permit and annual renewal I have recorded it at between
39 and 43 kts with flaps down (and 48 -50kts clean) with loadings between 1210
and1370lbs. I have tended to do my experiments on turn back height loss at
different
bank angles flying solo so think more in terms of the lower figure, and
on occasions when the wings are polished and bug free and the wing root gaps
freshly sealed, I have recorded 38kts.
>
> Stall speed vs Bank: The pilot's handbook for the mono XS talks of 44 kts
> level Max AUW stall speed. If you take that, the stall speed for different
> bank angles would be: 45 Deg = 52kts; 60 deg = 62kts: 70deg = 76 kts; 80 deg
> = 108kts (these figures and those to follow are available in most standard
> flight texts or on line at www.csgnetwork.com [2]). These stall speeds at 70
> or 80 degree bank are enough to persuade me that steep turns in an engine off
> situation are a recipe for disaster. I once, for fun did a deliberate stall
> in a steep turn (probably around 75degs) and found myself immediately in a
> spin. Richard Iddon did something similar but found himself in an inverted
> spin!
>
> Turning Circles: Bud you have suggested 800ft as the diameter of turn for at
45 degree bank will have a turn diameter of 800 ft but the actual figure from
standard tables is 445ft, and assuming that the pilot has had the wit to turn
into whatever cross wind there is, he will have drifted much or all of this back
to the centre line by the time he has completed his 180 turn.
>
> Height Loss: You also imply that you effectively turn the plane on its side
> and
let it go in free fall downwards rather than flying it in a balanced way so
maybe we are talking about something rather different. However I have a bit of
problem with your maths. You do not fall at 32 ft per sec - you accelerate
downwards
at 32 ft per second per second and 10 secs of free fall takes you 1600ft
- not good news!
>
> Finally can I say again that the good starting point for dealing with an EFATO
is doing just what your instructor told you - land ahead. If you are looking
to improve your skills and planning not to become the 9th Europa pilot to
succumb
to a stall/spin disaster, then I would strongly recommend working out a system
of turn back that works for you and practice it until you can do it with
minimal thought
>
> Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
>
> On 2016-04-30 18:12, Bud Yerly wrote:
>
> David,
> Not to open a can of worms.
> I have read the same study. In most aircraft with slow roll and high drag, he
is correct. On the average, a 45 degree bank gives a higher turn rate and you
still have 70% of your lift available to arrest your descent.
>
> Stan Sutterfield (another fighter pilot smart ass and Reno competitor) and I
did this in a couple of aircraft. In the Europa for instance, the roll rate, if
you unload to 1/4 G is very good (100 degrees per second). A pull to the verge
of stall near 80 or so degrees of bank at 75 KTS (the FAA recommends 70 degrees
to be the maximum of any turn of course) , turns the aircraft at three times
the rate at 75 knots. So it will take about 3 seconds to do a 180 and the
radius of turn is 200 feet. REMEMBER, NO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE! The
average
pilot needs 3 seconds to react while climbing and one second to roll in a
second to pull, and the same two seconds to roll out. That is 10 seconds from
straight ahead, to complete 180. Falling at 32.2 FPS, the plane will drop 320
feet because gravity works 24/7. Accounting for upward momentum during the three
seconds to react at a 15 degree deck angle of 75 feet, once can see that the
a completed well practiced turn can be done in les
s than
300 feet. The aircraft pitch will go from 15 degrees up to 15 degrees down and
still leave you with a descent glide if done at 800 feet and about 75 knots on
completion.
>
> The 45 degree of bank will take an agonizing 10 seconds, then add the reaction
time, and the loss of altitude in a power off turn is staggering and the
diameter
of the turn is well off the centerline by 800 feet. Now you have another
turn to do. That's dumb.
>
> I have done this maniac maneuver at altitude and once in the pattern (scared
the crap out of everyone and I was at 800 feet and younger then) and it works.
(Stan did it in a 172, but he is quite skilled.) I have had a couple of clients
try it and without dedicated maneuver practice and years of training, lost
amazing altitude and buried the nose. Without the training and practice, this
is one of those bar stories and fun things to practice three mistakes high, but
totally useless. Like racing airplanes at low altitude or doing Red Bull air
racing. Fun for the pilot, exciting to watch, but totally useless and expensive.
Besides my wife said no...
>
> As you so wonderfully said "I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO
> situation,
only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though
it will kill you". is the most sage advice one can give a fellow pilot.
>
> NEVER DO A 180 as either it will kill you due to altitude loss or stall, or
> the
sudden stop will! Turn only as necessary to hit something soft. Then open the
door and step out and call the insurance company.
>
> Best Regards,
> Bud Yerly
>
> FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk
> SENT: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 5:19 PM
> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
> SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage
>
> Bud, excellent advice and I am envious of the F4 experience! I hesitate to
> quibble
but there is one point I would like to offer a view contrary to what you
appear to be saying. That is on the most efficient way to turn in an engine out
situation if you are going to turn - and I hasten to add that I do not advocate
turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation
where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you, and as you say, and
critically,
you have practiced all the relevant skills.
>
> One of your countrymen , David Rogers, professor at US Naval Academy,
> Indianapolis,
who clearly has high order mathematical skills, has shown definitively
that the most efficient way of turning, (that is the way of turning through any
given number of degrees with minimum height loss) is to turn at 45 degrees bank
at as slow a speed as you can sensibly maintain without falling out of the
sky. Any more or any less bank increases the height loss, quite apart from
rapidly
increasing stall speed. You mentioned 80 degrees and I can imagine that
this might offer the quickest way of getting a fighter pointing in reverse, but
it would produce substantially greater height loss for an engine out Europa,
quite apart from stressing it to 5.76g and increasing the stall speed to around
100kts, or higher if you are flying at US mauw.
>
> My two penny (cents?) worth on stall/spin accidents, SmartASSes and the like
and a practical application of the Rogers findings, is on the club website
>>Flying>>Flight
Safety, for what it is worth. If you would like to turn your email
advice into an article, I would happily add that to this website eection.
>
> Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
>
> On 2016-04-27 06:55, Bud Yerly wrote:
>
>
> William,
> A distracted pilot is a link in an accident chain to be sure. Thanks for
> sharing
your experience. Frankly I needed it. We used to have a safety magazine with
a "There I Was" section of cartoons (with a message) before the real there
I was near mishap article someone shared.
>
> Although I am a keep it simple kind of guy, gear warning and stall warning
> systems
work. Are they worth the cost, effort to install, troubleshoot, fine tune,
and test? Normally Yes.
> Are slow speed voice warning systems better than the stall rumble strips, or
visual AOA systems, tones, "Bitching Bettys" and are they worth it on a straight
wing aircraft? Not to me, but they are another tool to help cue the distracted
or tired pilot to the old feeling that something is wrong. Probably time to
add a slow speed switch to 12AY. Alas, if you get used to hearing the slow speed
warning or seeing the red AOA arrow because a system isn't calibrated, we
ignore it when we may need it the most. When something is wrong, or it doesn't
feel right, go around and get your stuff together always works. Yes, I do carry
a piddle pack and have had to use it to relieve "cockpit stress".
>
> What's the cost of a prop, engine repair and wheel well repair vs. the time
> and
cost of a gear up warning system? Your choice.
> What's the cost of loss of a plane/life due to a mishap caused by a non
> proficient,
distracted, or fatigued pilot. Priceless to us all. And you're all lying
if you haven't been there. Know you limitations.
>
> Whether you are experience or not, practice, practice, practice. Know your
> airplane,
its stall characteristics, and in my case I fly it to its limits every
time I do a practice hop. I don't do touch and goes. I do very low approaches
where I slow flight down the runway for a 1000 feet just inches from the runway,
perfectly aligned and it makes me keep flying the airplane rather than that
old relaxation on landing habit we fall into, and my touchdowns are at 45
instead
of 50. (My tires don't wear out either.) Don't put yourself into situations
where you are overly fatigued. (No more afternoon takeoffs and long three
hops to get home, as I have a credit card and am not afraid to use it at any
hotel.)
Never take anything for granted, use the checklist, know your pitch, power
settings and speeds. Become a student of aviation again, take the time to
read (Google just about any topic and you get a wealth of info, try "pitch and
power flying"). We do things as old (read as experie
nced)
aviators from muscle memory, but the brain muscle is the most important tool,
and
we have to sharpen a tool to use it effectively.
>
> Develop good habits by breaking old ones. Read articles again on flying and
> techniques
to get the brain juices flowing again. The Rotax and Airmaster have
made me a lazy pilot. It is easy to push the power forward and pull the stick
back and the houses get smaller, but it is power that makes us climb, not pitch
alone (for long anyway) and occasionally I wish I had my GIB (Guy In Back in
the F-4) to tell me to "Start doing some of that pilot SH T and get us out of
here." or the famous "Doesn't all that shaking and beeping and rudder pedal
vibration
bother you?" as he locks his knees together at high AOA to prevent a
departure from controlled flight.
>
> Practice routinely, know your airplane well, know the proper site pictures,
> pitch
and power settings and install rumble strips on the leading edge to allow
the aircraft feel to warn you of an approach to the stall. Then set and
calibrate
your EFIS/Stall Warn/AOA system to warn of a low speed situation/gear up
or accelerated stall in the turn to keep you honest when you're not having your
best day. Practice simulated engine out approaches, no flaps, partial power
situations. Develop a passenger brief. Practice an emergency ground egress as
if you just departed the runway and found one of our Florida water filled
ditches
and need to get unstrapped and out quickly. Climb up three mistakes high and
do power on and off stalls. Practice unload for control drills. The plane won't
stall if the AOA is zero. (Unload for control is an old military drill where
the aircraft is flown to a high pitch attitude and the aircraft is unloaded
to a quarter G (just getting light in the seat, not
negative) and allowing the plane to fall through.) It teaches what an unload
feels
like when you are in need of full power instant acceleration to get out of
trouble at slow speed rather than the push the stick forward drills I see our
local instructors do. What happens when at 75 knots in a full power climb and
you pull the power, count to three (reaction time) and try to do a 180. I've
done a 180 in less than a couple hundred feet, but 80 degrees of bank pulling
at the burble is not a recommended thing to do, can I do it, yes, will I do it
rather than go for the golf course, no. If I goof it up, I'll get killed, if
I hit a tree and land in it or hit a sand trap, I'll survive. Stretch a glide
by slowing to near stall speed and watching the VSI, then do it at 75 and note
the difference. Pull the power to idle on base and glide at best glide speed
and see how your pattern is affected. Then do practice engine out approaches.
Bottom line, If I haven't flown in thirty days, I go
practice
much of the above. If I haven't flown in 60 days, I fly with an instructor if I
can find one, and if I can't, I go with another current experienced pilot and
or take it in baby steps to get the pitch and power down, checklist operations,
air work, emergency procedures and finally landings, at least three. Normal
low approaches to get the feel of the pattern, then a normal full flap touch
and go, no flap touch and go, full stop, min roll takeoff and soft field
landing.
>
> All the FARs in the US say is to fly alone, I can go nearly 24 months (last
> BFR)
if I want and then do three takeoffs and landings and I can take folks up
with me on a cross country (DUH).
>
> My two cents,
> Trying to live longer.
> Bud Yerly
>
> -----Original Message----- From: William Bliss Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016
4:37 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage
>
>
> Hi All
> Just thought I would tell you how I had long flight last weekend.
> Arriving back at the farm strip aching for a pee I had to do a low pass
> to clear the sheep. That quickly done, downwind checks and on finals
> sizing up the crosswind I became aware of a voice telling me to check I
> had the wheel down. I had not got the locking catch properly in place.
> Sorted. I would say the investment in the SmartASS has paid off....
> William Bliss G-WUFF
>
> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ics.com
> .com
> .matronics.com/contribution
Links:
------
[1] http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html
[2] http://www.csgnetwork.com
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