Bud & William, This has the makings of a rich seam of discussion!
Firstly William, I have been a bit sloppy in talking about my stall
speed. In various formal tests for initial permit and annual renewal I
have recorded it at between 39 and 43 kts with flaps down (and 48 -50kts
clean) with loadings between 1210 and1370lbs. I have tended to do my
experiments on turn back height loss at different bank angles flying
solo so think more in terms of the lower figure, and on occasions when
the wings are polished and bug free and the wing root gaps freshly
sealed, I have recorded 38kts.
Stall speed vs Bank: The pilot's handbook for the mono XS talks of 44
kts level Max AUW stall speed. If you take that, the stall speed for
different bank angles would be: 45 Deg = 52kts; 60 deg = 62kts: 70deg
76 kts; 80 deg = 108kts (these figures and those to follow are available
in most standard flight texts or on line at www.csgnetwork.com [1]).
These stall speeds at 70 or 80 degree bank are enough to persuade me
that steep turns in an engine off situation are a recipe for disaster. I
once, for fun did a deliberate stall in a steep turn (probably around
75degs) and found myself immediately in a spin. Richard Iddon did
something similar but found himself in an inverted spin!
Turning Circles: Bud you have suggested 800ft as the diameter of turn
for at 45 degree bank will have a turn diameter of 800 ft but the actual
figure from standard tables is 445ft, and assuming that the pilot has
had the wit to turn into whatever cross wind there is, he will have
drifted much or all of this back to the centre line by the time he has
completed his 180 turn.
Height Loss: You also imply that you effectively turn the plane on its
side and let it go in free fall downwards rather than flying it in a
balanced way so maybe we are talking about something rather different.
However I have a bit of problem with your maths. You do not fall at 32
ft per sec - you accelerate downwards at 32 ft per second per second and
10 secs of free fall takes you 1600ft - not good news!
Finally can I say again that the good starting point for dealing with an
EFATO is doing just what your instructor told you - land ahead. If you
are looking to improve your skills and planning not to become the 9th
Europa pilot to succumb to a stall/spin disaster, then I would strongly
recommend working out a system of turn back that works for you and
practice it until you can do it with minimal thought
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2016-04-30 18:12, Bud Yerly wrote:
> David,
> Not to open a can of worms.
> I have read the same study. In most aircraft with slow roll and high drag, he
is correct. On the average, a 45 degree bank gives a higher turn rate and you
still have 70% of your lift available to arrest your descent.
>
> Stan Sutterfield (another fighter pilot smart ass and Reno competitor) and I
did this in a couple of aircraft. In the Europa for instance, the roll rate, if
you unload to 1/4 G is very good (100 degrees per second). A pull to the verge
of stall near 80 or so degrees of bank at 75 KTS (the FAA recommends 70 degrees
to be the maximum of any turn of course) , turns the aircraft at three times
the rate at 75 knots. So it will take about 3 seconds to do a 180 and the
radius of turn is 200 feet. REMEMBER, NO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE! The
average
pilot needs 3 seconds to react while climbing and one second to roll in a
second to pull, and the same two seconds to roll out. That is 10 seconds from
straight ahead, to complete 180. Falling at 32.2 FPS, the plane will drop 320
feet because gravity works 24/7. Accounting for upward momentum during the three
seconds to react at a 15 degree deck angle of 75 feet, once can see that the
a completed well practiced turn can be done in les
s than
300 feet. The aircraft pitch will go from 15 degrees up to 15 degrees down and
still leave you with a descent glide if done at 800 feet and about 75 knots on
completion.
>
> The 45 degree of bank will take an agonizing 10 seconds, then add the reaction
time, and the loss of altitude in a power off turn is staggering and the
diameter
of the turn is well off the centerline by 800 feet. Now you have another
turn to do. That's dumb.
>
> I have done this maniac maneuver at altitude and once in the pattern (scared
the crap out of everyone and I was at 800 feet and younger then) and it works.
(Stan did it in a 172, but he is quite skilled.) I have had a couple of clients
try it and without dedicated maneuver practice and years of training, lost
amazing altitude and buried the nose. Without the training and practice, this
is one of those bar stories and fun things to practice three mistakes high, but
totally useless. Like racing airplanes at low altitude or doing Red Bull air
racing. Fun for the pilot, exciting to watch, but totally useless and expensive.
Besides my wife said no...
>
> As you so wonderfully said "I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO
> situation,
only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though
it will kill you". is the most sage advice one can give a fellow pilot.
>
> NEVER DO A 180 as either it will kill you due to altitude loss or stall, or
> the
sudden stop will! Turn only as necessary to hit something soft. Then open the
door and step out and call the insurance company.
>
> Best Regards,
> Bud Yerly
>
> FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk
> SENT: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 5:19 PM
> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
> SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage
>
> Bud, excellent advice and I am envious of the F4 experience! I hesitate to
> quibble
but there is one point I would like to offer a view contrary to what you
appear to be saying. That is on the most efficient way to turn in an engine out
situation if you are going to turn - and I hasten to add that I do not advocate
turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation
where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you, and as you say, and
critically,
you have practiced all the relevant skills.
>
> One of your countrymen , David Rogers, professor at US Naval Academy,
> Indianapolis,
who clearly has high order mathematical skills, has shown definitively
that the most efficient way of turning, (that is the way of turning through any
given number of degrees with minimum height loss) is to turn at 45 degrees bank
at as slow a speed as you can sensibly maintain without falling out of the
sky. Any more or any less bank increases the height loss, quite apart from
rapidly
increasing stall speed. You mentioned 80 degrees and I can imagine that
this might offer the quickest way of getting a fighter pointing in reverse, but
it would produce substantially greater height loss for an engine out Europa,
quite apart from stressing it to 5.76g and increasing the stall speed to around
100kts, or higher if you are flying at US mauw.
>
> My two penny (cents?) worth on stall/spin accidents, SmartASSes and the like
and a practical application of the Rogers findings, is on the club website
>>Flying>>Flight
Safety, for what it is worth. If you would like to turn your email
advice into an article, I would happily add that to this website eection.
>
> Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
>
> On 2016-04-27 06:55, Bud Yerly wrote:
>
>>
>> William,
>> A distracted pilot is a link in an accident chain to be sure. Thanks for
>> sharing
your experience. Frankly I needed it. We used to have a safety magazine with
a "There I Was" section of cartoons (with a message) before the real there
I was near mishap article someone shared.
>>
>> Although I am a keep it simple kind of guy, gear warning and stall warning
>> systems
work. Are they worth the cost, effort to install, troubleshoot, fine tune,
and test? Normally Yes.
>> Are slow speed voice warning systems better than the stall rumble strips, or
visual AOA systems, tones, "Bitching Bettys" and are they worth it on a straight
wing aircraft? Not to me, but they are another tool to help cue the distracted
or tired pilot to the old feeling that something is wrong. Probably time
to add a slow speed switch to 12AY. Alas, if you get used to hearing the slow
speed warning or seeing the red AOA arrow because a system isn't calibrated, we
ignore it when we may need it the most. When something is wrong, or it doesn't
feel right, go around and get your stuff together always works. Yes, I do carry
a piddle pack and have had to use it to relieve "cockpit stress".
>>
>> What's the cost of a prop, engine repair and wheel well repair vs. the time
and cost of a gear up warning system? Your choice.
>> What's the cost of loss of a plane/life due to a mishap caused by a non
>> proficient,
distracted, or fatigued pilot. Priceless to us all. And you're all lying
if you haven't been there. Know you limitations.
>>
>> Whether you are experience or not, practice, practice, practice. Know your
>> airplane,
its stall characteristics, and in my case I fly it to its limits every
time I do a practice hop. I don't do touch and goes. I do very low approaches
where I slow flight down the runway for a 1000 feet just inches from the runway,
perfectly aligned and it makes me keep flying the airplane rather than that
old relaxation on landing habit we fall into, and my touchdowns are at 45
instead
of 50. (My tires don't wear out either.) Don't put yourself into situations
where you are overly fatigued. (No more afternoon takeoffs and long three
hops to get home, as I have a credit card and am not afraid to use it at any
hotel.) Never take anything for granted, use the checklist, know your pitch,
power
settings and speeds. Become a student of aviation again, take the time to
read (Google just about any topic and you get a wealth of info, try "pitch and
power flying"). We do things as old (read as experi
enced)
aviators from muscle memory, but the brain muscle is the most important tool,
and
we have to sharpen a tool to use it effectively.
>>
>> Develop good habits by breaking old ones. Read articles again on flying and
techniques to get the brain juices flowing again. The Rotax and Airmaster have
made me a lazy pilot. It is easy to push the power forward and pull the stick
back and the houses get smaller, but it is power that makes us climb, not pitch
alone (for long anyway) and occasionally I wish I had my GIB (Guy In Back in
the F-4) to tell me to "Start doing some of that pilot SH T and get us out of
here." or the famous "Doesn't all that shaking and beeping and rudder pedal
vibration bother you?" as he locks his knees together at high AOA to prevent a
departure from controlled flight.
>>
>> Practice routinely, know your airplane well, know the proper site pictures,
pitch and power settings and install rumble strips on the leading edge to allow
the aircraft feel to warn you of an approach to the stall. Then set and
calibrate
your EFIS/Stall Warn/AOA system to warn of a low speed situation/gear up
or accelerated stall in the turn to keep you honest when you're not having your
best day. Practice simulated engine out approaches, no flaps, partial power
situations. Develop a passenger brief. Practice an emergency ground egress as
if you just departed the runway and found one of our Florida water filled
ditches
and need to get unstrapped and out quickly. Climb up three mistakes high
and do power on and off stalls. Practice unload for control drills. The plane
won't stall if the AOA is zero. (Unload for control is an old military drill
where
the aircraft is flown to a high pitch attitude and the aircraft is unloaded
to a quarter G (just getting light in the seat, no
t
negative) and allowing the plane to fall through.) It teaches what an unload
feels
like when you are in need of full power instant acceleration to get out of
trouble at slow speed rather than the push the stick forward drills I see our
local instructors do. What happens when at 75 knots in a full power climb and
you pull the power, count to three (reaction time) and try to do a 180. I've
done a 180 in less than a couple hundred feet, but 80 degrees of bank pulling
at the burble is not a recommended thing to do, can I do it, yes, will I do it
rather than go for the golf course, no. If I goof it up, I'll get killed, if
I hit a tree and land in it or hit a sand trap, I'll survive. Stretch a glide
by slowing to near stall speed and watching the VSI, then do it at 75 and note
the difference. Pull the power to idle on base and glide at best glide speed
and see how your pattern is affected. Then do practice engine out approaches.
Bottom line, If I haven't flown in thirty days, I go
practice
much of the above. If I haven't flown in 60 days, I fly with an instructor if I
can find one, and if I can't, I go with another current experienced pilot and
or take it in baby steps to get the pitch and power down, checklist operations,
air work, emergency procedures and finally landings, at least three. Normal
low approaches to get the feel of the pattern, then a normal full flap touch
and go, no flap touch and go, full stop, min roll takeoff and soft field
landing.
>>
>> All the FARs in the US say is to fly alone, I can go nearly 24 months (last
BFR) if I want and then do three takeoffs and landings and I can take folks up
with me on a cross country (DUH).
>>
>> My two cents,
>> Trying to live longer.
>> Bud Yerly
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: William Bliss Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016
4:37 PM
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage
>>
>>
>> Hi All
>> Just thought I would tell you how I had long flight last weekend.
>> Arriving back at the farm strip aching for a pee I had to do a low pass
>> to clear the sheep. That quickly done, downwind checks and on finals
>> sizing up the crosswind I became aware of a voice telling me to check I
>> had the wheel down. I had not got the locking catch properly in place.
>> Sorted. I would say the investment in the SmartASS has paid off....
>> William Bliss G-WUFF
>>
>> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> ics.com
>> .com
>> .matronics.com/contribution
Links:
------
[1] http://www.csgnetwork.com
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