Thanks, Mike.
That was my guess - a year before we can read it.
At the moment, the PFA are taking a scattergun approach to checking
anything they can think of which might contribute towards tailplane
flutter (what else can they do in the circumstances?). In addition,
the wording is still couched as "..may have been caused by flutter".
Although I have no doubt that the eventual findings will be
thoroughly researched, I expect others may share my impatience that
the precise failure mode is not yet known with certainty: was it
really initiated by tailplane flutter? if so, precisely which factor
or combination of factors led to the flutter? What else could lead to
the whole tailplane detaching?
As an aside, are there any aerodynamcists out there who can guide the
rest of us about fluttering systems where there is backlash present?
Is knowledge of these based on art, science or black art? Likewise,
is there anyone out there who knows what flutter was ever experienced
with the early prototypes, or indeed with later machines?
One other thing. I heard on the grapevine that the accident aircraft
was returning from some pretty invasive maintenance when it crashed.
Does anyone know what the maintenance was and therefore what parts of
the airframe were "disturbed"?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 20:54, Mike Gregory wrote:
> Willie
>
>
> Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the PFA, told me last Friday
> that the AAIB were unlikely to publish anything soon, when I asked
> that specific question.
>
>
> AAIB reports normally take many months. For example, the report on
> the crash of N8027U at Kemble on 25th March 2005 was published in
> early 2006.
>
>
> The AAIB do, however, keep in close touch with the regulatory and
> airworthiness authorities and provide them with preliminary
> information as to the likely cause, especially where there is
> preventative action such as inspection, change of operating/
> handling instructions or potential modifications which may improve
> safety.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Harrison
> Sent: 19 June 2007 18:59
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Brian and Mike (G)
>
>
> Any idea when we can expect the full AAIB report on the UK accident?
>
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 18:15, Brian Davies wrote:
>
>
> Raimo,
>
>
> When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that
> includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and
> accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance
> to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues.
>
>
> Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
>
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
> Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> When I practised Europa emergency landings
>
> with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
>
> from the ground when in downwind.
>
>
> I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
>
> So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
>
>
> Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
>
>
> Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Paul Boulet
>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Hi all;
>
> Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180
> with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I
> owned a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the
> turn back. You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like
> 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you
> have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back up with
> r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of
> altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would
> call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a
> reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn
> back to r-way.
>
>
> Keep the shiny side up;
>
>
> Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
>
> Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
>
> It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
>
> and try to save the plane and make a day.
>
>
> If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
>
> but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
>
>
> If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
>
> goes well, you will fly again in the same day
>
> (after refueling or what so ever).
>
>
> What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
>
> Break your baby or take a risk of death.
>
>
> Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
>
> below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
>
> not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
>
>
> After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
>
> I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
>
> This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
>
>
> There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
>
> How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
>
> 5% ? 10% ?
>
>
> I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
>
> Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
> officer?
>
>
> What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
>
> What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
>
>
> This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75
> knots MINIMUM.
>
> in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against
> gusts and failures.
>
> When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
> feets.
>
> Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
> speed is 75 knots.
>
> With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000
> feet.
>
>
> I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
>
> windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
>
> Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
>
> Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with
> black rubber and was screaming.
>
>
> Regards, Raimo
>
> ============
>
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
>
> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
> landings
> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: William Harrison
>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Carl,
>
>
> Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in
> any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height
> it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various
> permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
>
>
> I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts,
> flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
>
>
> When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
> personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn
> back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
>
>
> What other views/data has anyone got?
>
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
>
> Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the
> 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots
> at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500
> feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn
> at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing
> stalling with inevitable results.
>
>
> Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low
> height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under
> 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead -
> sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large
> enough.
>
>
> While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even
> in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa
> crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three
> years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants
> survived with few injuries.
>
>
> Carl Pattinson
>
> G-LABS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: William Harrison
>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
> However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway.
> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/
> showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much
> lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll
> practise a few more times.
>
>
> The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
> between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
>
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
>
>
> A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
> c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a
> week.
>
>
> He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is
> a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash
> site is between the runway and the golf course.
>
>
> It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think
> if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
> emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control
> failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> Dave and Dale,
>
> I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
> family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
> personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
> information on the accident with the Europa community.
>
> Fred
>
> >
> > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it
> was,
> > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> > terrible loss.
> > Dale Hetrick
>
> On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
> time
> > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> > about a year ago:
> >
> > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> > tie bar for restraint.
> >
> > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
> airplane
> > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he
> used to
> > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
> >
> > Dave DeFord
> > N135TD
>
> --
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> believed to be clean.
>
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